Nawal El Tememi on Movement, Breath & Returning to the Body

What if the point of dance isn’t to perform for others but to come home to yourself — breath by breath, turn by turn?

Brooke sits down with Nawal — former performative dancer turned embodied educator — who now guides people back into their bodies through intrinsic movement, breath and ritual. In this luminous conversation they trace a path from stage technique to somatic presence, exploring how whirling, music, community and small daily practices rewire attention, nervous-system tone and our capacity to be present with ourselves and others.

In this conversation, Nawal opened up about:

01:43 The Role of Dance in Personal Development
05:54 Understanding the Diaphragm and Breath Control
11:35 Consciousness, Awareness, and Presence in Movement
17:22 The Importance of Music and Silence in Dance
18:54 Personal Meditation Practices and Body Awareness
25:39 Exploring Whirling and Its Spiritual Connection
35:11 The Verticality Axis and Consciousness Expansion
39:49 Bridging Esoteric Practices and Movement
42:48 Whirling Magic: A Journey into Transcendence
49:36 Grounding Techniques in Movement
55:05 The Power of Collective Energy and Connection


Begin any movement with a one-minute breath check: slow, curious, sensory.

Whirling is less about spectacle and more about reorienting proprioception and noticing inner space.
Community practices amplify safety; shared rituals turn private practice into sustainable transformation.
Music and micro-rituals are powerful tools to anchor nervous system shifts — choose tracks and cues that call you home.


Presence is both a simple technology (breath, alignment, attention).
Movement is a conversation with your tissue, your history, and the people who hold space with you. Remember your body knows what to do already.

The Gamma Seeker Broadcast

The Gamma Seeker Broadcast — shaping the future of recovery, consciousness, and performance.
At Musical Breathwork we investigate what actually works to tune the body-instrument — blending lived practice with physiological clarity.

Guest links

Website — http://www.the9lions.com
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/nawal_el_tememi
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/NawalElTememi/ 


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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Joy, I hope that works. I'm gonna do one more, episode 32 with Nawal. Everything is frequency. In this episode, professional belly dancer Nawal brings a completely different texture to the Gamma Seeker broadcast. She weaves mysticism, somatic movement, and neuroscience into one fluid conversation. What begins as a dance, unfolds into something much deeper. We explore her art of spinning, almost like whirling dervishes, but not as art, but as actually a physiology. How this rotation influences cerebral spinal fluid, tension patterns, and the way that we regulate our system. The wall carries the poise of a dancer and has the clarity of a great educator. Listening to her, you'll feel the desire to move, to twirl, to swing, and to play as you did as a child. This conversation brings you back into motion, into joy and the intelligence of your own body. Be mighty.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Welcome back to the Gamma Seeker broadcast. Today I have with you an athlete and an artist and a scientist that I haven't had a chance to break bread with yet, but we have both been admirers of each other's work. She is a dancer and the educator. It's kind of hard to put a noun that fits the archetype, but I see myself in Nawal. And uh this is our first time getting the chance to talk about cerebral spinal fluid, the role of movement, breath, uh resurrecting ancient forms of, you know, pathways through the body back to our divinity and spirituality. So I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy life to be with us, you world traveling educator. I would uh I want to start with what is your mission?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

What are you doing? What am I doing? It's a great question. Um, my mission is I believe in freedom, you know, and I believe in freedom for people. And to do that, uh often the ideas are not that complex. So I like taking more complex concepts and making them digestible for many different subcultures. So that's kind of like my role that I've discovered that I've been given. I believe we all have roles, so I'm just yeah, leaning into my role and being a translator design.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

And that takes the shape, yeah, for sure. I understand the difficulty in that question as well. So that role has taken you around the world teaching something that looks like a meditative, intrinsic dance. What I really liked about your work is how often you talk about turning the awareness within. Dance is often very performative. Um, it puts you in a theatrical state of mind the way that it's taught in the West. Um, but that's not actually what dance evolved from. And the way that you're steering people, I resonate with truly. So can we talk about a little bit how you guide people back to the body?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Well, I came from a performative space originally. Um that's kind of where I started. I was a yoga teacher and a belly dancer. And I performed all over the world as that. And um and very intense, competitive level um showgirl stuff. So, and I'm very sensitive. I never got into dance for the costumes. I never got into dance for the glitter. I really loved the self-discipline. I noticed that when I could lock it and go into my training, it brought a better version of myself. All of the other things like stage and recognition and contracts, like, I was like, oh, I have to do this, you know. So it wasn't that wasn't the part that fed me or the ego side, you know. Of course, we need ego to survive, but it wasn't the ego side that fed me. It was more of the self-discipline and the learning about my body. And, you know, as an athlete, like we must cross-train, we must explore different things. And um, so my career as a dancer and injuries as a dancer, because I lived in eastern Canada, super cold, volatile weather. Um, my it was my injuries that really took me into many different dimensions, you know. So, from different forms of dance, different forms of therapy, and um, and also uh having to kind of change my career. Like uh I live in Cairo, I'm based in Cairo now, I live here. And uh being a belly dancer, you'd think it would be celebrated, but my family is Egyptian, so it actually makes it more complicated for me. Uh, there's a mini social stigma that comes with that here. It's kind of something that's loved. You'd want it at your wedding, but you wouldn't want your son to marry a dancer, you know, there's these social stigmas. So when I arrived here, I kind of observed this and I was like, I can't work under these conditions. So, like what it is to have a studio empower women in the West was seen in a different light here. And it was actually quite heartbreaking for me. So I was like, how can I take what I've gathered as a dancer? Because at the root of it, it was it fed me. What was it that fed me? So I looked at it. It was my personal development, my leaning into the body, my sensitivity, developing my sensitivity with the body and getting to know myself and my mental limits, also not just my physical limits. Um, how can I rebrand this, I guess, and bring it to women that I don't give myself the label belly dancer? And how how can I bring the root essence of what I love so much to people without this label? So it really caused me to kind of self-reflect and see how I can make transferable skills in a way, and um starting presenting it as uh divine geometry because it's geometry in the body, making shapes in the body uh as you're training. And I'm I'm still kind of in the process of ironing out what's the best thing, but um yeah, it's kind of worked a bit, you know, it's working that way, and I'm still able to uh bolster people's confidence and help them just know themselves. It's really it's really amazing that usually, and it's almost it's very cliche sounding that you're like, well, yeah, you just have to tune inward. Like you hear that all the time, but like what does that even mean, you know? So it's yeah, having that confidence and then having the personality and the image for people to kind of want some essence from you. Um, and at the end of the day, it's you're simply teaching people that everything is in the body, you just need to slow down and listen and take care and be in presence with yourself, you know. And again, I always feel like it sounds so cliche to say, you know, but you know, but it's really the way, it's really the way.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

I have referred to belly dancers as the masters of the diaphragmic connection. Because the diaphragm, even though it's this U-shaped muscle, most people think of it as a pressure system that just goes up and down, but the three ridges that are within it give you the control of, you know, um, famously, the I think one of the most famous bellow dancers of all time did the quarter trick that could like lean over. Yeah. Helena, Helena Vlaos, yeah. Thank you. I was like, I can I could get her name right on a multiple choice answer.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

And she could flip the quarters. If you guys haven't seen it, please look it up. It's an amazing video of diaphragmic and abdominal control. And when you learn how to control your diaphragm like that, you are also controlling the vacuum system of the body. So you're pressurizing the CSF fluid, you're pressurizing the lymph, you're pressurizing your blood circulation. So I'm sure when you're in the midst of a belly dance, you can kind of see when they drop into that brainwave state where they have entranced themselves with this rhythm because the body and the breath are one. Um, I know it's probably one of the most difficult things to teach people because you can't see the diaphragm. It's all internal sensation. And how is it like, is there an exercise that you do? I know I have my own way to bring awareness there, but I would love to hear maybe like something we could try together.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Ah, okay. Well, first of all, I I really tell people to think of our, I use the world word um our tubu our tubularness. Like a lot of exercise forms are very linear. And so belly dance, we have our circles and our geometry. So I'm like, think of yourself. It's not just your back, it's not just your abs. We're a tube. So we first need to kind of expand our energy to the edges of this tube. So we we kind of start with that the edges, the front, the back, the sides. So I start with this like awareness of our shape. You know, sometimes people think like we're we're the front and the back, and the they don't even consider and the sides. And I'm like, what about the places in between? Think of an octagon. So even, and then I'll get them to like put their hands on their ribs. And often in like live class, I will often encourage students, if they want, they can put their hands on me. And I've done this to many teachers where I'm like, now just put your hands on me, or I'll put my hands on the student. I'm very hands-y teacher. Um it's like it's like osmo, it's like uh they'll feel it.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

It's more resonation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, so you can explain and in all day long, but sometimes like they can just see it or they can feel it. And I learn well this way, so I offer that. And then I'm like, okay, so now picture the diaphragm going down and I'll show them pictures. I'm very visual, so I'm like in the anatomy book and I'm like, this is you know, and observe this and feel what's happening. So I use a combination of like visualization. I encourage them to go into create what I call like your mind vision or your mind map of your body grid, like what's going on, create your uh create your vision. It's gonna be different for every person how they have their internal mind's eye of their body. So, you know, I encourage them to kind of like slow down and work on this. And then for the diaphragm, we usually say for the flutter, this like uh control of the diaphragm or even flipping of the diaphragm. I'm not sure what you would call it, but we say, like, take a big breath in and then breathe it out like 70%, and then take a so there's still a bit of air in there, and then I go to like bring it air in, but it's like I block my air, so I'm like and I block it, so it's like I'm pulling in, and they can feel that pull from the inside of the diaphragm. So I'm going to like bring air, but I can't, and so I'm like, okay, you can like cover your mouth, or you can like use your tongue and think you're bringing air in. You're like, but you you know, you can you can't.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

So are you like are you shoving your mouth close? Is it like suctioning cups? So it's like a valve, like you're creating like a pressurized exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

It's like I'm trying, it's like as if I had, you know, this I don't want to make any traumatic images. I'm very visual, but it's like if I was trying to bring air in, I simply can't. There's like blocking, like if I had plastic over my mouth, inshallah, that never happens. But and I'm trying to bring air in and there's nothing coming in. So it's like I'm trying to inhale in, and it's just, and then I can feel my diaphragm lift a little bit. And a lot of times uh we'll get people to like lean forward, um, like bring their body in a position because then there's no, like the body doesn't have to support, and the muscles are a little more soft. So like I would get them to maybe like be in a squat position forward with the hands on the knees and do that because then the muscles are like sometimes people tense up and it's really about being more relaxed.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Wow, that was all really cool imagery. Like even the tube. I was picturing like a bubble around me or um like a faucet of light. Okay, so all of those were very cool, like pro proprioception exercises. Do you have people in front of mirrors or blindfolded when you do a lot of these?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Uh often, often the mirror, and then I will tell them like to turn from the mirror, you know, for some different things. But I find the mirror helps and dance and it helps create the visual um of what they're going for. But sometimes I'll be like, okay, like just leave the mirror alone and then like just try. Because people are always like, Am I doing it? I'm like, I don't know. Are you doing it? Can you feel it? So the mirror helps them like not have this question. But yeah, it's a common one. Am I doing it? It's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

So I've been playing with this concept of consciousness and awareness and presence as three separate things, like trying to really get clear on this. And I've noticed that many people that are kind of numb to the body, they're conscious of things, they're aware of things, but they're not feeling into it. Like they don't have an awareness of their toes until we like re-establish that relationship. So dexterity is like something that dancers and musicians have to wrestle with. So when you learn an instrument, you argue with your fingertips.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

And you're just like, come on, dude, we can do it, you know, and it's like you're building a neural net to attach to this instrument. And then when this instrument gets it, it can perform basically without conscious effort, like a lot of people type. And we don't realize like that is a neurological like attunement that you've built in the mind there, that speed. I got married, I got very intellectual, I got a little stiff, I didn't go out dancing for a while. He hated dancing. I got divorced and I went out. And I remember this conversation with my body. I was moving my hips and I was like, why does this feel so foreign? Why do I feel so like stuck? And it was like I had to let the music, I had to soften to let the music back into me and then just allowing the music to move my body. But it was like a conscious release of getting the awareness of the music within my body. And I am sure that you see this at the beginning of a class versus the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Big big time.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah. Can you tell me what your advice is for people like me who have kind of like gotten out of it for a while? Um, how do you coach people to drop back into it?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Oh, yeah, we're so cerebral now, especially um since after corona times, everyone's just very cerebral, I find. So I do a lot of also teaching character work and embodiment. And for me, to get people to embody, I get them to again the visualization. So I'd say you breathe it in, breathe in the music, or I think of the music coming up through my feet. Because if you're not connecting to the ground, or like people always say, be grounded. What does that even mean? You know, you want me to dig myself into the ground? Like, what does it mean to be grounded? And I just say, think of like a tiger's paw, a big tiger's paw, and like it's spreading out on the ground, like when you touch. So think of your foot as like this big tiger's paw and a big feline energy, like this prowl, you know, the prowl of the feline. And people are like, ooh, you know, especially women if they're doing embodiment, like to feel like a big panther is very appealing. You know, I think women and men, I use the same visual for both. And uh, yeah, it kind of like boom, sink into a little bit of your predator, uh, your feral energy. I'm like, now just let your senses like it's not from a place here, or like if they feel like this is moving, this tornado of thoughts and energy, whatever they have going on, think think of diffusing it into the body, like it's a strong electric current. It's like white hot energy. So, how can I diffuse it so it doesn't burn me? Which is when I get too cerebral or people get too cerebral. So, how can we just diffuse it? It's like putting a spoon in your tea to like take the heat off. How can I just I have a body that can do that, and then I can further think of fusing into the ground also?

SPEAKER_03 16:05

That is so beautiful. So, you're talking about you pouring the voltage through your body back into the earth. So I I love the paw example. I noticed for me, I have this like real intense memory of a reggae show, and I was out on the sand, so it was music outside, beautiful music, and it was like my feet needed to hug the earth, and then it was like my hip, and it was almost like inviting the energy of the earth back into my body, and then like allowing my body to kind of hold more on each breath, and kind of like allowing the hips to play with the sound because there is a tension, there's a tightness, you can feel it, it's everywhere. I think the world needs music and dancing more than ever.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

More, super more than ever, and then like with a little of these prompts, these visual prompts, and then, like I said, giving people geometry because they're like, What do I do with my body? It's so everything's so robotic and linear. I would I call it linear a lot. Um, so you can give them some templates, it's shaped. So I want to make a shape with my hips. Let's explore that. I can do a circle, I can use my hands to push the shape. I can make a circle here, I can make a circle like this. Of course, this is like a goofy dance to do this, you know, but just get the concept that nothing is wrong, also. Uh, I've taught a lot of different topics through dance, like I said, character work and many different things. And the main question that comes from people is am I okay? Like, am I doing, am I okay to do this? Am I culturally sensitive? Am I foolish? Am I okay? It's very difficult, I find, for the modern person to accept uh accountability. It's a scary thing to have accountability nowadays because you could be canceled or you have social pressure. Um, so people just want to know that they're okay. So they're given a template of what's okay. I'm allowed to make a shape of any type, and then just move through that with a combination of breathing in the feeling, embodying an animal, because I believe in nature is perfect, you know. So, like the kind a combination of a few things, and then you can be a little more free.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

That's beautiful. How important is music to your experience?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Oh, super, super. More when I was younger, to be honest. Um, now I'm all about feeling and I do a lot of things in quiet. But yeah, if I'm moving people, I I want to kind of set the tone and I try now, like it's not as important to me as it was when I was young and performing and more external output. Um, but yeah, the I like more silence now, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Are you with your breath when you're dancing in that silence? Like I would I would love to hear about where what your personal meditations look like at this point.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Oh god, yeah, it's a very multi-tiered. I mean, I'm very fortunate. I have like my whole career is is this movement and guiding others through movement. And it's not just this, but it's like I have to also radiate energy. If I'm doing this and saying you should do this too, or whatever the curriculum is, I have to live and breathe it in it in my antenna of my body has to make people feel comfortable that, you know, wow, she does that. And I want to kind of do that too. I believe, like as practitioners or facilitators, we have to walk our talk. So I have a few different practices that I rotate, you know. I like to start my day. I'll like get up and brush my teeth, and then from there I do like a meditation. I have um like my meditation, I kind of I worked with a lot the six-phase meditation. It was from Vision and Mind Valley. I worked a lot with the Mind Valley, and so I started with this meditation and many others, but this was the one that kind of like really sunk meditation into my body. So they start with like the feeling of gratitude or thinking of someone that you really, really love. And just so you start to feel inside of your where, you know, usually for me it's here and any it could be anywhere for anyone. So I start with this and I start to think again where my body starts, where my body ends, and then I call it gridding. I grid out, like so. For my visual, I kind of see uh like a grid over the earth, and I expand out into my neighborhood and my trees, and I go and I just think of like all the people I know and love around the world, and we I just kind of circle the world with my awareness. And then from there, I'll kind of like be in this melty state, and then I'll take it to the floor. So then I'll start with like very small, very small movements, um pelvic tilting, aligning my pelvis, checking in with my low back and breathing, of course. Like during the whole time I'm doing like a complete breath, you could call it maybe a pranayam, but not so focused on um the technique. I just expanding in all directions in my circularness, my tubularness. Uh, and I'll go into this like very um circular joint warm-up, we could say. So I move through all of my moving parts. First, I start with the hips and I'll move through my ankles and kind of up the body and check in. And uh yeah, move through that. Um, and then I'll go into like some yin stuff a few times a week because I'm not getting any younger. And then after that, I like to do some like high intensity interval stuff to for my fast twitch, you know. So I like to really do my slow twitch. It's like calms my nervous system also, and then I'll get into like high intensity where I want to sweat and like bring my heart rate up and move. And then after that, like conditioning, I'll move into dancing. If I'm working on dancing, or I'll go into whirling, or I'll go into like whatever it is I'm working on. But usually my warm up is like the meditation, the gritting, uh the Deep body work, the deep body awareness, checking my shoulder, oh, this one's higher than the other one today. What's going on in my arm? You know, like thing, you know, things like that. Noticing if, you know, because I visualize the body as like a jelly, like a gingerbread man. I visualize my body like that. And if I feel like a pulling in my calf could be affecting here, like often if I have something in my shoulder or my traps as normal, I don't need to overwork my trap. I kind of visualize that web in my body. And often it's like things from my calf or my leg that I need to work on to like open up, you know. So I go into this deep, like observing my my gingerbread man jelly shape that I see my body in. And then I kind of work through that. But that's like a my non-negotiables, I call it. And in addition to that, having an amazing uh moisturizing routine.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Um that was also great as someone who coaches people how to recover their fascia. I love everything that you said and the awareness that you have of how the lower body and upper body are connected. Um, that's why I feel like you know, a ground up approach is so important for people when they do have neck pain. If you just treat it there and it continues to come back, that is not the originating source.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

It's not. It's not.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

So that foot um oh that foot, brain, body connection um to expand it even past the body is is where my work falls. I really am a I believe that we are energetic beings housed in this structure. And this structure, even though it has like the skin as it's permeating exterior later, there is this other layer of energy electromagnetic energy that comes off of it. And this electromagnetic energy fluctuates based on how well we're grounded, literally the amount of electrons that we've taken in, the amount of sunshine that we've taken in, all of the ultraviolet radiation that we absorb from the sun, the quality of our water, the quality of our breath rate. Um, and then, you know, the output that how we would read the frequency could be like the coherence between the heart and the brain. And I think that there is a layer called gamma that we can access by using the body as a resonant instrument. I think it takes good cerebral spinal fluid flow and a clean body instrument, loads of electrons. And I think that in a relaxed brainwave state, we can pop there. And this relaxed brainwave state to me is the it's the overlooked mechanism in the wellness culture. There's a lot of people that are selling in America, selling, buy this, you need this, do this, this is another practice, add this, you know, listen to this while you do it, so it'll hypnotize you to be there better. Right. These are all outside in approaches until we get back in control of where's our heartbeat, where is our brain at? These are the frequency modulators of this field that's coming off of us. And if we want to increase our presence, like it's it's very interesting to see what's happening in the beauty industry right now. There's so many people getting procedures, like you had mentioned it before. I live in a microculture here where it's I'm so close to Miami, it it ripples. But I feel that we are going to start asking deeper and deeper questions of beauty. And beauty, in my opinion, is radiated. There is no like ideal body type, there is no ideal mashup, it's a radiation. You fall in love with someone by the energy that they radiate, how you feel in their presence. And love is a frequency bond. You can't force it, it's not a physical thing, it is an absolute dial of you and the perfect thing that is attuned for you for that chapter, and you're lucky to hold on to it. And people that you know create that bond, they have to have attunement practices to hold it. And you and I go about two beautiful ways of getting people back inside of the body, and you mentioned whirling. And whirling to me is probably such a difficult thing to do. I have tried it since finding you, and I'm like, wow, you know, to close your eyes and to tilt your head back and to trust this process, there has to be so much trust, so much awareness, so much presence that you've built. So can you can you riff with me a little bit about like why whirling? What brought you there?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

What are you doing with whirling? God, yeah, it's so interesting. So, like I said, as um, like I was a belly dancer, I'm I'm retired now in my career. Um and I always thought the spins were so cool and captivating. And I always wanted to like get really good at spins. And so I have a daughter, she's 17 now, and I will credit her. So when she was, this is a story that I, you know, always tell. So if you've heard it, please forgive me. But when she was like 10 months old, you know, when babies are holding an edge before they like let their hands and try their walking, you know. So she was at this stage, and I was, you know, very attentive with her. And then one day she just tilted her head to the side, and her little feet were tuck, tuck, tuck, tuck, and she's turning and going for a while. And then, you know, she started walking, but then she would have these little sessions where she would just do this turning in place, and I was like, that's something. And I put the album on, like a children's music album, and one day she went for 38 minutes, and I was like, Okay, this is something. And so I started just to watch her because I was a yoga teacher and a dancer, and I like break down what the body's doing. So I learned, and of course I was a child, like turning and then spinning in a chair and getting dizzy and like, oh, I have to hold the ground. Like, I think everyone's tried this, and I'm sad if you if you haven't tried this, you know. So I started doing this playing, you know, playing with my daughter. Like sometimes I'm just like, you know, I'm a very bad boy. I just like to be a child and play in this state. And um, so we started doing this together. So I started to incorporate this into my movement repertoire, and like I was having gigs and working, doing producing shows and trying to make things that were like visually amazing for the stage and within the festival circuit, also. So I started to do this, and um there was another studio that they brought um, they brought a Sufi from Egypt, um, which is not the same as Turkish Sufi. It's a whole anyway, that's a whole thing. But he looked at my technique and he goes, I have nothing to tell you. Like if you want to be Sufi, then if you have to become like read more Quran, if you want to become Sufi. Um, but it's technique-wise, he goes, I have nothing to tell you. I was like, Okay, sure, thanks. Like it wasn't anything there. So I feel like I learned from a very pure place from a baby. Like before they have any, they're not performing, they're not uh any concept of am I doing it okay? They have no baggage, you know. So I feel like my technique that I learned was given to me as a gift from my daughter. And um, and then of course, I took it and I developed it and I like I worked with it and observed what I was doing so I could teach it to other people in a really simple way. And as far as I understand, in the world of whirling or Sufi or anyone teaching this, what my contribution has been has been breaking it down and making it just very technical and mechanical, because my dance school, um, where I spent many years was the Salampur Institute in Berkeley, California. And they're very, very technical and have this like syllabus of very intense small isolations in the body. So I used my teacher brain from this to observe what I was doing to break it down in a very easy, what I think easy way.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

That's beautiful. The um the proprioception from athletes is a great place from coaching because a lot of like doctors and therapists, as brilliant as they are, they're so cerebral that if you're talking to a professional athlete who's just I they I lovingly call them the knuckle draggers. Like they're like, just give me the exercise. I don't care about the science, just tell me what to do. I'm here to do it. Um there used to there needs to be a translator, someone who's hyper aware of the body to like instill the practice so that it's delivered um easily. And I think dancers have an edge about that. You guys have your own language, even to describe certain moves. Um, but you're one of the few athletes that train in front of a mirror. And like everywhere else, you're out on a field, you're out on a course. And until I did video training as a golfer, I didn't really have my biggest breakthroughs until I could see myself. And then I applied ballet technique to golfing, and I would tape my mirror and I would get into the coiled positions while like really maintaining my spine angle or my head angle. So I completely understand what you mean about making it technical and a nuanced practice so that you could teach the body how to hold a shape and the shape would be reliable under pressure. I think dancers have just such a mastery and language about that. It's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Uh yeah, and when I went to like I was getting asked to teach whirling, and I was there's no certification, and there's no, like I said, I worked a little bit with a Sufi from Egypt to entertainers, and they're like, there's nothing for us to tell you. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go into my observation teacher mind. And I went into my own session, it was like 13 minutes, and then I just stopped and observed myself, and I sat and I felt this spiral inside myself that I had never really felt before, and I was just like, what the heck is this? And this is a cool feeling. Like it's like I literally felt a tornado down my central axis, you know. And uh, so I get on the, I found myself in the arms of the internet as one does, and uh, I'm searching and I'm finding like medical journals on meningitis, and like I was like, this is not. And then I found uh Dr. Moro Zapatera, and he had his dissertation. This is maybe almost 10 years ago, eight years ago, um, that I was like, yeah, trying to figure out my my format of what I'm doing. And I saw his dissertation on the cerebral spinal fluid and the I am consciousness, and I was like, ding, ding, ding. This is this is exactly it. Like, did I know for sure? No. But did I feel like it? I was like, oh hell yeah, this is this is it. So I watched his video and I was so excited. I wrote him an email. And I'm not really one to like write at someone from YouTube an email, okay? And I felt like a little weird. And I told him the story that I just told you, and he actually wrote me back. And he was like, yes. And they were talking about when they put um electrodes, I've not, you know, or EKG or EEG, they put them on monks and priests and people in the state of prayer. And they said that they all had this similar physiological effect happen on them, which was where the cerebral spinal fluids flowed through the front ventricle of the brain. Like everyone was having this. And I was like, I think I just hacked talking to God, you know, like through the whirling. And that's like, I was like, is this a biohack? You know? And I was like, okay, because you go into this state, like once your body knows what it's doing and trusting, then you go into this state where you don't even know the passage of time. I guess we can call it flow state, like if people are painting or sporting.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Yeah, is what I call it. It's like when their brain's at full resonation, all of the neurons can connect. The fact you called it the God zone is so beautiful. I call it like the creative force, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

So I was like, I think I'm connected to, you know, I think I'm connected to like I think I hacked it. Like I think I'm going into um this state where I was like, is this what the Sufis are doing? I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what anyone's experience is, you know, you can only speculate. And I was only being able to observe like my own experience of myself as my own labor laboratory. And then I kept going from that place um where I always say uh my verticality access, or when I'm teaching, I'm like, okay, think about your verticality axis. So first, when people are trying this, they're very vertical, like almost in an awkward state. When people are taking a whirling lesson, they want that aba done and they want the hair and they want that feeling of the freedom. So then the verticality, I found that it came more from like my sternum area. Or I have a teacher, she's from the West Coast, Deb Rubin. She's also a dancer and a yogi and an amazing, uh, also scientist half breed, you know. Um, and she has her cue called Eyes on the Front of the Spine, which again, not thinking of the body so linear, but thinking of the spine, the inside of the spine, from the front of the body, not just from the back of the body. And this is like a visual that people don't consider. So I think of my spine um from like behind the sternum, this part of my spine that's in the front, and I kind of anchor myself from that area of the body in the center of my body, you know, and I call it my verticality axis. So, like my meditation grid, as I was saying, is the horizontal axis going around the globe, but then there's this other axis, you know, when people talk in meditation, uh picture a cord from your tailbone grounding into the earth, and then picture from the crown of your head going upward. So it's like this like the verticality axis.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

I want to say something. Um, you just gave me such a good illustration. When a spider builds a web, it has to first like hit its four cardinal points before it starts doing its spirals. So it has to go down and then come back to center, or go up and then come back to center, then it goes down, comes back to center, and it goes, you know, left, goes back to center, right, comes back to center, and then it can start to spiral. And um, so the whole visual that you just brought there is so good. Um, in so many ways. Ceremonial magic, uh, initiatory rights, a lot of it has to do with how are we expanding our consciousness through the top and the bottom, and then out the sides of our body, um, and then around the body. And I was interviewing a world champion archer, and we got pretty esoteric. He was like a pretty spiritual guy, um, and really saw the connection between himself and the target um as this field that he could communicate with. And so when he set world records, that's where I like I steered the conversation into like tell us the story, like, how does it feel on the inside of the body? It's a great story. Um it's a Patrick Houston interview, but he gets to this discussion about external rotation and how when adrenaline is building up in your system, you you kind of catch fire because like you that the adrenaline vasodilates you. So you start to sweat, your heart starts to palpate, you start to have a flood of thoughts. And for him, he had written a prayer, essentially a mantra, an affirmation, whatever word you want to apply, um, for him to focus his thoughts so that he didn't get distracted with what other people were doing. He was centering his energy, laser focus. So once they were like six rounds in, he said that he focused on his external rotation and he would read this prayer and he was trying to keep himself in this frequency. So, what you're saying about like your perception of the front of the spine, it reminds me of like when you look at the statues across tons of cultures, external rotation is part of connecting with this divine. Even if you're in Savasana, there's still this openness, there's still a state of reception, like an antenna or a satellite or a sunflower to receive the energy.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Oh, I just got goosebumps. Um, I always um that's what I always say. I go, we're our antenna, like our we are the antenna. Um, and like I was mentioning before, I just came, I was teaching at O Culture Conference in Berlin, an esoteric conference. And my aim to teach there, and mostly a lot of my students are movers already. So we're going to the esoteric conference in Europe, the biggest one. So we have a lot of people that identify as witches and warlocks and magicians and like very I did a workshop on remote viewing. It was amazing, by the way. And um, so my workshop was like not normal for there, and I was worried that this like cerebral community would not receive it so well, you know. Um, I was in the metal scene when I was younger in Eastern Europe, and uh they're intellectuals and they're very stiff, you know, they're gonna be at the show like rocking back and forth, they're not like embodied or they're not like free, and it's maybe too vulnerable of a place. Like there are the people with their black army pants, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

I'm very familiar with the metal crown. You know, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

You know, you know, it's utilitarian.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

There's a uniform.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

There's a uniform, exactly. There's a uniform. And uh so I was like a little apprehensive. Like I was invited to teach there because anyway, my band knew the organizers in 2020, and then we know what happened in 2020, and then 2023, I couldn't make it out of Egypt. It was something with my passport I had to do. And then finally, this year, I finally made it, and I think it was perfect that I was delayed like this because they were like over it. I think they realize that they're hard exterior. I'm I I don't have weakness, I'm very stoic, I'm very upright and linear. Um, I think they're tired of it and they were like, I need something, I need to soften. So in the conference, and there's multiple workshops happening. I had like 50 people show up. I was shocked. Like, I was actually very proud of my room management, and I had to sh people a few times because there was like so many people. I'm like, sorry guys, I don't want to show you. Oh, it's next level. Yeah, yes, it's next level, though.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

When you have 40 people in there, you have to control the alphas, you have to control the omegas.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

You know, my my inner, my Egyptian personality came out, and um I have it was one of my favorite, favorite workshops I've ever taught uh of whirling magic. I've taught it all over the world. Um and it like I said, my clientele or my demographic has been dancers, and then I was in Stockholm because I have a bit of a following there, and I had a bunch of psychedelic people come. And I was like, hey, psychedelic people, what's up with you? You know, I'm again between all the worlds. I kind of consider myself a cultural chameleon, subculture. And uh I was like, I really want to deal with the psychedelic people, they're cool usually and exploratory.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

They're highly yeah, and they're present. Like they come to have a good time, they're here for your experience. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

So they were like, they were super fun, and you know, as a facilitator, it's like our greatest wish that people are getting what we're saying and that they're engaged, and you, you know, you don't want to look at a bunch of blank faces that are like so they were just like open, and I was like, this is the right time for this. And um, I bring skirts from Egypt, the whirling skirts, because it kind of like once we break down technique and do hip openers, you know, I kind of have like a slideshow and then I do body preparation and breath work and then how to turn. Maybe they've never danced before, so we break down a little bit of that and do some across the floor exercise. They were so engaged from start to finish. They really, really wanted to like get it. I was like, this is so cool. I am so excited for this group of people. Like, and everyone there was like working on their PhD in religious studies, like very high-caliber intellectual people. And I was just so proud of them to come and like play with me like this. And that's what I said, you know. Yes, it's like my professional concept in my professional life, but I really invite you to kind of go into your child state where you're just playing and to make everyone feel supported, like we're taking turns who's whirling, and then we have like people on the periphery in case maybe someone goes off to the side, they can we can catch each other, you know. So I try to make it like an interactive experience where we're all in this together, no one's uh silly, we're all just playing, and we all have each other's back. We've we you know, we've got you. Um so that was a really, really awesome experience for me. I just loved it. And uh I was so happy to bring this embodiment work to a more cerebral community that you might not find them in a dance class otherwise, you know, they might not try it, it doesn't fall into their awareness. Um and that's really something I love is like bringing different ideas into subcultures who might not see it, you know, placing like short.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Well, the whirling has this like really ancient effect on all of us because we love those spinning playground toys. So it's not like it can kind of greet people who are closed off to dance from just the concept of experience what spinning does within your body and learn how to do it. In your own way. So I feel like it could break through to men. I feel like it could really spawn for a lot of different experiences because not everybody is a mental meditator. I think that a lot of athletic people, a lot of people that feel attached to their body, a lot of sensual people, a lot of sexual people, um, having the body as a conduit for your meditation is uh another way to drop into the deeper connection to a deeper presence here. And even if you don't resonate with dance, if you find yourself listening to this, please try whirling. And it sounds like 13 minutes is a nice little sweet spot. You'll have to follow Nawal for more information of how to do it. Are you teaching these classes? Like, where's your next one?

SPEAKER_00 44:46

I would love to go to one. God, I don't know where my well, my next one actually, I'm in Cairo. I'm doing one here in Cairo, and then for next year, I have no idea. I will be back in Dubai um in January. But yeah, I just like people reach out and book me, and I will be uh I'll be in America next spring. But yeah, something might pop up that I have no idea, but I have a lot of people that come through Egypt, like everyone comes to Egypt eventually, and uh so they'll like find me that way to work one-on-one, or like again when these workshops pop up. And uh yeah, so my next one is at the end of the month here at Cairo. And um, like when I did this one in Berlin, how I framed it for these uh cerebral community, uh, I called it whirling magic, a journey into transcendental experience. And so that was that was the word that like brought them, I think. And um, because what if you want to transcend, what are what are you gonna transcend? We're inside of this. So, you know, what that's the only thing to transcend is like being in the body. It's like how do we get that altered, the altered states altered from what? What's your nor what's the normal state? So it's not just like my normal state is sitting in a chair and then going out of my body this way. It's like first being in the body and then transcending out of it. It's kind of like how I frame it. What is the breath rate that you teach with the whirling if you don't mind? It's it will end up being fast. It's like cardio. It's like cardio. So I end because you're you're essentially you're essentially running in place once you get once you get going. Um and you can go slower, uh, but slower is more difficult. So Sufis, they're turning, I would say maybe you could say like six to eight breaths a minute is ideal. Like try not to be panting and you know, and just again think of your verticality or maybe like the box breath, how the ballerinas used the term box breath, breathing out to the side. But also just like breathe how I, you know, breathe however you need to. Just keep breathing, is usually what I tell people. But yeah, try to not overwork, but you're end up if you go for any amount of time, you end up kind of like a cardio state and sweating. And then sometimes even I'll be like like performing, I can hear myself breathing. Like I'm like you know, because it's you're going, you're going, you're going. So it ends up being actually pretty athletic. I'll get people to drop in with kind of like uh ocean sounding breath or like ujay breathing to just like kind of open their airways to start. And then I'm like, yellow, now it's on. So just like breathe as you need. I was like, it's cardio, guys, yella, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

When you are um doing the twirling, are you barefoot by chance?

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Uh you don't have to be, uh, but you but you can be um because it can be on all kinds of different surfaces. Like even in Berlin, everyone was with their shoes and like interesting combat boots, actually. A lot of times I I like to be in, I like to be in boots, some solid footing if I'm out. Um there's the Canadian in the out. And um I like to have solid footing, and there's also there's performers of this. Uh in Egypt we call it tanura, which means a skirt, but there's tanura performers, and those guys wear like it looks like riding boots. They wear like solid boots, you know, because like you're in to keep grounded sometimes. I'll instruct people to also like strike the floor more strong so they keep that awareness in their feet because it's easy to be up here. It's easy to just kind of like go out of your body, it happens. And um, I'm like, no, you gotta stay in the verticality. So, how do I keep my whole verticality open is like really stomp the feet for that awareness, kind of like in Indian dance, how they strike the feet for that liveliness.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Well, there's a lot there. There's a lot there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

And then and then sometimes we add in an element of vocal activation, so like moving up the body, so striking the feet for the awareness, like not only the spreading the feet wide, but then striking them so you stay present and awake in a way, so you don't trance out too much while you're trying, go do that in your homework in your own time, and then going into like a very low, like uh, like where you can feel your uterus or your low, like and so this also helps bring awareness to the pelvic bowl. Um, because we use the pelvic as an anchor. Like, if you want to use uh the upper body in any type of thing that's not this like upright super vertical, your pelvic bowl has to become your anchor. Um, usually I'll teach people like think of us as like some circles, the pelvis and then the ribs and then the head. So we want to make sure it's not like tilted. We want to stack these two circles to start, like, and then we can break the rules if you want to go off of your axis with the upper body. The how to say the pelvis is your like your stability. So we want to kind of really anchor. Like I even say to be as detailed as I'm anchoring in my left hip flexor, like I'll often turn on my left foot as an anchor, and I'll anchor in my left hip flexor, like in my psoas, the spiral, like I'm spiraling around my own hip is how I is how I feel like this anchor of that side.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

The golfer in me totally resonates with how you're communicating. Uh good. Yeah, because my weight transfer during a golf swing, which is a very violent thing, you know, like it's vi like I am I am like pulling in all of this potential energy and then unleashing it exactly where I want to, and it makes me shift my weight in a figure eight. And however tight and efficient I can move my weight through the figure eight of my feet, is the result of the shot. So the more pure and refined my weight transfer is, and stable my spine is over how I anchor into my right hip, and then I sling my weight from my right hip to my left side, anchoring through the foot, and then it rips like the I'm throwing the force through my left foot, and I'm allowing the knee to stay stable, and the hip opens, which moves the spine, which then moves the shoulders, which then moves the arms, which that moves the club. So that spinning, kind of like yeah, I can't. Because if you're if you're spinning, you have a relationship to centrifugal energy, and like a golf swing is very centrifugal. So I'm coiling my body around a stable base, a stable fulcrum, and then unleashing it with the greatest amount of violence I can conjure while from one side of my body to the other. Yes, while having a super stable foundation. Um, so everything that you're saying, it's like, wow, I get, I get you, girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

You know, even the person that doesn't have a lot of experience with their body, they can kind of see that, you know? And I'm like, it's kind of like you're turning up and over, and maybe I'll show them like what is a barrel turn, and even something as silly as like I'll put my head on the wall and like turn myself over, and they're like, Oh, I get it, you know, like I give very like again, silly visuals. I try to like have a lot of play, play inside of it. Because I can be very technical and serious, but it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Have you done this one? This was weird. Um, so like when people feel their golf swing for the first time, they don't think of it as ground-driven, and it's like really the upper body rhythm, it comes from the earth. So I have them jump and spin. And like if you do it on a trampoline, you can see when you try to spin your upper body, like if you swing a club or if you just try to spin, your lower body has to counteract the force. And so it's a I found it a way to kind of shock people's lower body, upper body connection back in.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

No, that is cool. But you know what? I just had it, like I just had a deja vu of having this conversation, like how it works for me. It's like I have like precognitive dreams, and I never it just happened. We are right on it just happened when you said the jump and spin. I was like, wait, I heard this before. Like, um no, I haven't tried that. What what I usually try to do to get them to connect the upper and the lower is um we have a format, we have a style of dance from Egypt called Sayyidi, which is from Upper Egypt, which for us is South Egypt because the Nile comes from the south, but they so they call it Upper Egypt here. And it's very hot down there. So their style, the males dancing, a particular another topic I teach, um, which is like an Egyptian martial art, is tahti basaya. So it's like a stick dance, a male stick dance. And the vibe is like uh very uh heavy and grounded. And I'm like, you need like plie, you know, it's like they don't have dancer language always. I'm like, you gotta like bend your knees and be like and heavy. And I'll put on like a piece of music from Saeed because it feels like that. It's like this heavy drum-driven. Um the rhythm is called Sayyidi. And then I'll say, okay, like connect your feet in the ground. And now I want you to be like this heavy piece of seaweed. So you're like, you're moving, but you're rooted. I love it. Yeah, no, that's great. That's a great visual. Yeah, so then I'm like, okay, just move in your seaweed. And I go, if I elbow you or hit you, you're not gonna be stable. And I like fake them out a little. Of course, I'm not gonna punt my student. Maybe I might, uh, you know, and uh, but yeah, I'm like, okay, and if I were to come and punch you, you're like grounded, and so and they're like, oh, okay. Like a lot of people don't, yeah, I guess they haven't pretended to be seaweed.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

We all have our own way of feeling the ether body, like feeling this weight. And it's when people say, like, oh yeah, you know, like life is heavy, or like someone pot die, feel things feel heavy, or they're celebrating, like there's a birth um in the family and things feel like light. We have these different textures to apply to these sensations, but I think it's our jobs as educators to derive the vocabulary, like come together like this and have these weird conversations about like coaching an audience where it's your job to serve. Like if you're up teaching, you have people looking at you, and it's like those are kind of heightened moments where new, sometimes new information comes in because you're you have a whole blanket of new people in front of you, and you're like, But how do I say this? I need to communicate to you, but like what is your brain gonna understand? So your seaweed it reminds me of this like this weight. Like, I feel like when I'm really dancing, which to me is when I go to festivals and I'm with my girls, and like I don't know what we're doing in the ether plane, but it feels like we are rainbow makers. Yeah, and we like have this line and we have this huge vortex that goes around us, and we are just spinning light and playfulness into the air, but it's coming through the body, it's coming up from the earth, and it like it takes a while to get the body clear enough and clean enough, and then like once it's up, then there's no stopping us, then we just kind of stick together as a team and throw our ether body every we're huge. We start to feel that like 60 feet of laughter around us, like we're changing, people are looking at us and smiling because it's infectious. That energy um is what can heal the world, you know? Like that's the heaven that people become nourished from, and then they go home and then they have the ability to do the great work. So your seaweed expression is so great. I would love to teach with you. I think we like you and I could put on a really dynamite workshop somewhere in the world on a solstice like that.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

I feel like that. Yeah, no, my pleasure to meet you. And you know what you said about with your girls. So, what does this mean? This is like you're with people that you know and you know accept you and that you trust. So this is like a thing that people um they pull back from shining their full because again, am I okay? Am I safe? So again, when you're being held by other people that you know love you for who you are, good and bad. I mean, I don't think there's that much bad in most people, to be honest, but your favorable and less favorable qualities, that can that just allow, and then you have your gritting, you're like gritting out to them, and that's gonna even be an amplification on its own. So then when you're having fun, yeah, people just want to be a part of that. And it can take you so far just to like smile and be open. Like I was just traveling back from Dubai, and yeah, I could have been grumpy in the airport. The airport is not a vibe sometimes, you know, and people had to have a pen to fill it out. And I was like, yo, I saw a guy looking for a pen. I was like, yo, here's a pen. I just I didn't say anything, I just passed it in a little smile. And he was just like, oh, just immediately relax, like, oh, someone is attending to me, you know. So yeah, feeling care from other people is gonna let you amplify that and just feeling, yeah, compassion and love and okayness is so important for us to be able to, you know, and people that we're so lucky to be able to work in what we love and connect with other people we love. And you have to remember a lot of people don't have that, you know? So it's again, you have to you have to demonstrate it for them. And uh they're willing usually to just jump on and ride that rainbow wave, you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:36

Yeah, we have to be the brave and weird. And like if you're listening to this, you're also brave and weird, and it's taken a lot of different left and right hand turns for Noal and I to find our place. So um, if you feel lost, confused, and scared, absolutely that's part of the path. It's normal. But what yeah, but you have to keep seeking. If you stop seeking that fulfillment, that enthusiasm, that authentic power, that's when things, the the energy feels farther away. And some people they find that thing and it doesn't move. That enthusiasm stays in the same spot, and like, great, that's their path. But some people, particularly artists, the faucet of energy moves. You're a weapon. And as you know, as reality shifts around you, you need to learn new skills. And sometimes, in order to make you move, they have to take things away. So um continue following that river of life. And um, Nawal, it's it's been a real pleasure to link up with you. I really hope this is just the beginning of our friendship because I think we have great work to do together, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

I think so too. At least go dance somewhere together, you know.

unknown 59:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

Where can people um stay tuned to your journey? Where is it the most easy to contact you, to find you, to keep a lookout?

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Uh, the easiest is probably Instagram. I'm active on there. I'm not like on many, well, I'm on Facebook, but my daughter told me that's for old people. Um, and so yeah, Instagram is easy. And then if you're anti-Instagram, I get it and I respect you. And um, or my website, I have it's called the Nine Lions, the Nine Lions, and the number nine. And nine stands for um, people ask me what that means. It's my siblings. I'm the oldest of seven from my mom and dad, and then I have two half siblings. So we're in my last name translates in Arabic to lion. So it's the nine lions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Beautiful. Wow. How royal. Well, thank you for your time and energy. Is there any last thing that you would like to say before we call this good?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Oh man, um now I just have so many thoughts, and there's probably gonna be something later that I'm like, man, I wish I asked this. Like I said, I was watching some of your podcasts, and I was like, Oh, I wish I was like in the room for that conversation. It's so cool to riff off of. Um La, I think like I'm I had a really crazy day today, so I'm a little overstimulated, but I'm really good. Um I'm always open for the inquiring mind to reach out, or if people want to bring me to their city, or if you come into Egypt, you can holla. I'm here, but I'm also out a lot. Um but yeah, I'm super open to talk to curious, weird people that want to be more curious and weird. So halas, I think uh, I think I can't think of anything else, but uh I really, really love your work. I love this opportunity to get to know you better and just like vibe together in this conversation. It's really cool. And I'd like to thank you for your like interest in what I do because I obviously love to share it too.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

Uh girlfriend, keep you you keep shining your light. You're setting a real good example.